Episode 6 : Spirituality

The newest episode of Beyond the Grove invites listeners into a thoughtful and uplifting conversation with David Sellers as we explore spirituality, meditation, and what those practices can mean in everyday life and recovery. Together, we discuss finding peace in difficult moments, learning to slow down in a fast-moving world, and how spirituality can look different for every person. Whether you are deeply rooted in faith, curious about meditation, or simply searching for balance and hope, this episode offers encouragement, reflection, and meaningful insight for anyone on a healing journey.

Beyond the Grove discusses topics related to mental health, addiction, recovery, and real-life experiences. Some episodes may include mature or sensitive subject matter that could be emotionally challenging for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised.
 
 This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only and does not constitute professional medical, mental health, or legal advice. The content is not a substitute for consultation with qualified professionals. If you or someone you know is struggling, we strongly encourage seeking support from a licensed healthcare provider or mental health professional. In case of an emergency, please call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room immediately.
 
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The On the Group discusses topics related to mental health, addiction, recovery, and real life experiences. Some episodes may include a mature or sensitive subject matter that could be emotionally challenging for some listeners. Listener discretion is advice. This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and does not constitute professional medical, mental health, or legal advice. The content is not a substitute for consultation with qualified professionals. If you are someone you know is troubling, we strongly encourage seeking support from a licensed health care provider or mental health care professional. In case of an emergency, please call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room immediately. By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge that the creators, house, and guests are not liable for any actions taking based on the content discussed. Hi, welcome to this episode of Beyond the Grove. I'm Colleen, and joining me today is David Sellers. And David, your Pine Grove spirituality coordinator.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yes, yes. Kind of a unique role for a lot of treatment centers is uh full-time uh spiritual coordinator.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Well, that's exactly what we're going to be talking about today is spirituality. And I think lots of times when people think about spirituality, they wonder what it is. And how does spirituality differ? And does it differ uh from religion, for example?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Ooh, good, good. I I have longer lectures upon these to break them down, but then here's the the cliff notes for spirituality. Um, most people want spirituality simply to be just a relationship with a higher power, but it's so much more than that. It's um you think about the basic relationships around your life, um, the relationship with yourself, the relationship with others, and the relationship with a higher power. And one way of gauging that is what's your awareness and how is your connection with those relationships? So for me, that's the most basic definition of spirituality, our awareness and connection with ourself, with other people, and that which is greater than the two.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

That is a really, really good definition, David. And I think that helps clarify things for people because I think sometimes people might feel a little, it's hard to define what spirituality is, even though many people will say, I am a spiritual person.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Right. Or they'll say, Well, I'm not very spiritual. And and say, wait, wait, let's let's unpack that. Let's see. Uh, where have you found your greatest moments of connection or awareness, or where have you kind of bumped against the mirror of your own relationship with yourself? And how has that tripped you up in your relationship with others? And then all the little issues that can prevent us from having a healthy relationship um with God, even. And the way that differs from religion, in its, and this is in some ways over simplistic, but religion on the whole speaks to a group. Yeah, well wow, as the saying goes, wherever two or more are gathered, um, religion also tends to get stuck in the past tense or the future tense. So a way of thinking of that is um so based upon something that happened in the past, this is why we believe or practice X, Y, or Z, or something we expect to happen in the future. That's why we believe or practice X, Y, or Z. Also, religion is um has a lot of rights, wrongs, rules, regulations, rituals, creeds, dogma. It does that cover everything? Here's how it's reflected in um in spirituality. Um, not that it's a spirituality versus religion, but what makes it distinct? So, one spirituality is very personal. Um so, whereas a religion will speak to a group as a whole, spirituality speaks to you. What are your personal experiences? Um, for example, maybe you've just woken up early, walked outside, and seen a sunrise that takes your breath away, and you feel large and small at the same time. Um, and yet it can be so personal, you then tell someone inside, you know, a child, a spouse, uh a friend that's visiting, and there's this lost in translation moment they because they haven't seen your sunrise, um, even though they've seen other sunrises. Um at the same time, when we think of tenses, spirituality has only one tense right here, right now. And often our times our spirituality gets off track, we get stuck in the guilt and shame of the past or anxiety and worry of the future. So, how can we be present? That's why when we talk about spirituality, it's inevitable to talk about what are your spiritual practices. These practices bring us into the present. And then lastly, it's um when looking at religions, all sorts of ways religion defines spirituality, wants to look at what is practical, what are the practices that bring about a sense of presence and personal experiences.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

So I think that is a really great way to define it and to talk about it and to help clarify spirituality for people.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

And just to let people, because sometimes people will push back, is um, there's a lot of uh leeway with this because then the role of a healthy religion should teach you how to be spiritual.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Very good. Well, here at Pine Grove, spirituality is incredibly important. And David, talk a little bit about why is spirituality so important when it comes to recovery.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Oh, absolutely. Um one, it's a core component of the 12 steps. Uh, in fact, the 12 steps have had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, which means the steps themselves are spiritual practice. Um, plus any sort of wrestling with mental health, physical health, um, modes of addiction, spirituality is wrapped up in all of that. Um, think back on those relationships. If you don't have a good relationship with yourself, then everything looks your your glasses are are yeah, um purple colored, you know, um, you know, maybe tight-eyed. Right. Because you see yourself distorted. Or what if you built a resentment against a person or an institution, then you begin to see things through that lens as well. So spirituality is the heart of any sort of recovery program.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

What are some of the questions that you find uh some some of our patients, people in recovery, um, may have about spirituality or may have struggled with regarding spirituality on their recovery journey?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Ooh, yes. Um well, maybe it helps for me to first say here's here's kind of my role here. Sure. And then look at a couple of the questions. Um so I will do group spiritual sessions with every program here, from child psych to adult psych to our inpatient, uh, professional groups, you name it, um, as well as individual spiritual direction. And spiritual direction is different than a therapist. A therapist is working with an issue, looks to kind of help you move past that issue, whereas spiritual direction listens to well, the questions that are where we're stuck. In other words, to your own spiritual sense and to propose those questions to help you move forward past that stuckness. Maybe that's a good word or not, but yeah, it's said.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

I think we all experience some stuckness from time to time.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

And most of the time, that individual spiritual direction deals with two people either one, someone trying to find a higher power, or they're wrestling with some form of spiritual abuse, um, which um can be very real or even perceived, but either way it's real to them. Right. And and so a lot of the questions uh I receive are questions of, well, I was burned by this church, I was hurt by this pastor, or a youth director, or someone I thought loved me. And so now they're angry at God, which really they're not so much angry at God as angry at the individual that the church represents uh to God. Or I'll get questions of, well, you tell me meditation helps, but I've tried it before, it doesn't work. And it's opening them up to the realm of a world of healthy meditations. So many out there, we think meditation is just one thing, or or I will get questions um dealing with the whole gamut uh of here's my religious from a Christian standpoint. How can I, you know, relate to what you know, this and the program? I see the program and they're telling me this. And so I will I know the scripture, the verse, and things, and they're like, ah, so now I see the connection of what moves us forward.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

And do the questions differ? So, for example, you do you work with all patients here at Pine Grove, uh, from our youngest patients uh that are receiving child and adolescent care? Do you notice that some of the questions or some of the spirituality issues that patients uh wonder about or will benefit from regarding their recovery, does it differ according to to age group? Do children wonder about certain areas more so than grown-ups, vice versa?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Uh yes and no. Okay. So um, yes, in the aspect of some of the deepest questions that we at all ages wonder about. You know, does God hate me? Or sometimes it's the question of does the universe hate me? Is everyone out to get me? You know, um, yeah, and or how can God love me after what has happened to me? And those are the same questions I receive, whether it's a a child uh or an adult, uh, know in the aspect of children are more willing to ask sometimes some funny, some unique, some strange ways. Um also they they will sometimes get um, I have the same reaction with them as adults, where I go walk in and I'm the spiritual coordinator. And immediately they'll back up or silence, or when they're not so sure. So usually with a child's side, I begin with some form of mindfulness meditation. Uh teach them very simple techniques, and then I tell them, here's the physiology, here's what's happening to your body as you meditate. And they they will jump to that quicker. Then later, now they're I they're able to ask any you know spiritual questions they may have.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

You've mentioned meditation a few times. Uh how does meditation help somebody regarding their spirituality or recognition of their spirituality?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Oh, absolutely. Spirituality in its essence um teaches us to listen to the human condition within. So, and what what I mean by human condition is everything that's brought us to this space. Um our our fears, our tears, our joys, um things that we've done or been done to us. Um and meditation allows us to slow down and see what's there. Um, too often our world, uh as adults, we'll think of all the boxes we need to check off, or dinner to be prepared, or things to do the next day. And we forget to slow down to see how the day's impacting us. As children, there's another school assignment, or somebody's texting us, or another TikTok video, and the same distractions. And so meditation in its simplest form allows us to listen, to listen and notice, okay, I've been a little afraid. Well, do I know where that fear is coming from? You may or may not know at that moment, but a regular meditation practice allows us to slow down, to see, and then give it permission to, okay, I don't know where this fear is coming from, but I just I can I can recognize I'm afraid, but now I can also let it go. And and that's a beautiful moment to see when people go, okay, I can hold this, but also I can let it go as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Well, you mentioned about spirituality and how spirituality really speaks to the present, and meditation helps you uh become more aware of your present. I think coming to terms with or being fully present is very difficult for people because you're you're thinking about what happened in the past and why that might be upsetting you. And you're always planning for tomorrow or later this afternoon or in a in a half hour. And it's very hard to sort of sit and become fully present. So it sounds like meditation can really help with that.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yes, we've we've got also verifiable research that um meditation helps with depression, helps with anxiety. But just five minutes of meditation, heart rate goes down, blood pressure goes down, tension within your body begins to relax, uh, ability to focus goes up, and even they've seen increases in short-term memory. No miracles on their short-term memory, but but yeah. So uh, and there's a variety. Um, the hardest one is sitting still, thinking of nothing. That's the one we think meditation is. Right. There's also thinking meditations where you take something like guided imagery. They've got YouTube videos and other podcasts that they'll guide you through, and your mind gets the picture, the image of walking through a park, sitting on a bench, smelling some flowers, um, watching the squirrels do a parade. Um, you know, then one of my favorite, there's a Christian form of meditation called Lexiodivina, um, which really means um divine listening, and it's a way of taking a passage and reading it three different times. And each time you're you're sinking down a little bit deeper into the listening. So that gives you just a few. There's literally about more and more. I have several lectures that I'll do here, and sometimes I'll go on in the churches to say, look, you have a rich history of meditation. And let's uh the Buddhists get all the all the uh media play, they get the ads. But there's rich, rich tradition, even across other religious traditions from um you know, from uh Judaism, Christianity, and several others that have a meditation practice. So, and to balance that out, I'll also balance some people feel more common heading to prayer first. Because if meditation is listening to that human condition, prayer is learning to speak to it. How do we find the words to what we're going through at this moment? And I'll admit, some people hear the word prayer and they're oh, not me. And so I'll say, Well, let's what about a poem? Can you write a poem? Um, um, typically I get them to do a haiku because they think that's funny. Yeah, but it's it's amazing how in just 30 minutes they have this haiku that sit they're sitting with and and tears begin forming because it speaks to right where they are. Um, or I had one gentleman who was uh a songwriter um by trade, and so he put his prayer in the form of a song, which is what we've been doing, the poetry for centuries, right? So and it's amazing how quickly, suddenly, boom, um, his life um, because he said, That's what I'm going through. That's that right there, but you could also see it in other people as he began to sing it. People connected, you're not just singing your words, but also my journey. And it's right there. So uh, or for any um kind of alternative country music people, if you've ever listened to Jason Isbull, um, you can see his journey of recovery from his early albums to his current albums. He's made that transition and put those, uh, I think into song.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

One of the areas that we have here at Pine Grove is our spiritual grounds. And, you know, and sometimes when people will call us, prospective patients, their family members, we'll talk about some of the areas that really set Pine Grove apart. And we talk a lot about a commitment to spirituality and spiritual growth. Uh, we talk about your goal, David, as well, that we have a dedicated spirituality coordinator at Pine Grove. And we talk about some of the elements on our spiritual grounds. Would you like to talk a little bit about those elements, David, and how you work with our patients regarding some of those elements and how these elements, which um certainly Pine Grove is not the only organization with the labyrinth. However, um, you know, the labyrinth has been around for centuries. And um, but I think sometimes people may see these elements and really have questions about how they are used or how they might be beneficial for me and my recovery.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

That would that would that would be a wonderful, maybe short rule of video we can do maybe later teaching the lab, yes, or um quick little 10-minute uh uh intro, but we're blessed to have to be back uh with some wonderful pine trees and oak trees and and nature. Uh sometimes just talking about spirituality can be too heady of an exercise, and we need to get outside uh to breathe the fresh air um and take a moment to allow the sunlight, the breeze to hit you. And while you're in that, uh let them know this is a sacred place. Uh, as the Franciscans would say, you know, God's first Bible is creation itself. So so you are here in creation, take a moment. And I'll I'll do some outside exercises, then we'll move to our first element, might be our Native American medicine wheel that we have, which has a beautiful connected story. It's a pine grove, and I'll teach them how to use it uh in a way that now their bodies are involved with their sense of spirituality instead of just a heady exercise, and they can let go of that and then move them slowly to the labyrinth, which at its most basic element is a walking meditation. And they can follow the path as they turn left, turn right, and begin to let go. Whatever has been built up, whether it's an emotion, a resentment, um, things they're future tripping outside of here. Uh things we love to do. When we know that we have a task at hand, we'll find uh some other tasks to think about. Sure. But the labyrinth allows them to just be present, turn, be present, turn. When you get to the center, have a moment just to breathe, relax. Then as you're moving out, then engage your senses. What do you hear? What do you smell? What do you see? It's and some of the stories that I've heard after people have walked the labyrinth are are just beautiful. Um, I'll I'll tell one of my favorite, uh actually two of my favorites.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Please do.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

So one was a uh a woman who her her thing that she wanted to let go before she went into the labyrinth was control. And she took a leaf in, and every time she would take a few steps, she would try to break off a little bit of the leaf to let it go with each turn. So on her third turn, the wind blew her leaf down. She went down and picked it up. She's making a few more turns, the wind blew again, and she went down and picked it up. About the seventh turn, then the wind blew again, and this time she went to pick it up and she stopped and realized no, she doesn't have to pick that up again. And then began her walk. And you could tell just by her footsteps, her shoulders were back, her head was high, she was letting the sun catch her, she learning to let go in an instant where the wind and a leaf and just a few steps. Um another gentleman was uh letting go of his um he had felt that he had been abandoned all throughout his life. And as he walked the labyrinth, he received a few images. And I told him, Don't don't try to dissect it, just write those images down. And so he walked with it. About four days later, he saw me walking the campus, ran up to him, guess what? Guess what? Every instant of those images was a pitiful, not pitiful, a pivotal moment in his life. Uh, death of a parent. Uh, another one was where he lost his dream. Job. The other one was where a loss of relationship. And each time there was a friend, family member, colleague right there next to him. So even though he felt abandoned, he finally realized he never was. And just yeah, even as he shared it, tears of joy. So just the simpleness of letting go, of getting out of our heads, or allowing the walk to take its place can be a kind of a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

So I'm sure, David, you have many stories. And you have many stories I would think of patients who have struggled with spirituality, the definition of spirituality, and during the course of their treatment and their care uh meeting with you, um, they've had a turnaround, or they they're more in touch with their spirituality, or they feel more comfortable about having that conversation.

unknown 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah, it's it's uh it's a truly holy moment. Uh I also have a chance to hear people's fifth steps. For those that are not familiar, the fourth step is a searching and fearless moral inventory, which is kind of daunting. But then taking that and sharing that with someone else. And so I just tell them I'm here to be a witness to you telling speech telling it to your higher power. And this is a sacred moment, and it's it's so peaceful to hear people share things, some things they've even kept from their therapist while they're here, just to let go of and a sense of freedom afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

How would you say for our listeners, David, a good um initial way for people uh to become more in touch with their spirituality or to lean into their spirituality uh starting from the moment they they may finish this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Ah, well, um speaking of podcasts, I I have one of my own. Um, so yeah, shameless plug there.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

But that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

It's it's called uh The Way This Day. It's also under under my name, David Sellers. It's a brief um prayer podcast. Um, I promise it's not long, it's only about seven to nine minutes, depending on the day. There's a brief focus, uh a scripture of the day, and a prayer, and then a prayer focus. And the prayers range from very serious to very funny. So I love to collect all sorts of prayers. Uh, if you have one, send them to me. At the same time, here are a couple of jumping off spots. If you have someone that's in recovery or you are in recovery yourself, I would like to jumpstart a little deeper relationship with spirituality. Uh, one of the top ones I recommend is Richard Rohr's Breathing Underwater. It's uh spirituality in the 12 steps. As he describes in the book, in addiction, you're drowning. Uh, and yet in recovery, the water is still there. So, how do we learn to breathe in the midst of it? And then a deeper one of that is Addiction and Grace by uh Gerald May. He is a pastoral counselor. Um, and now if this one seems, and you can look and get some previews, uh recommendations of it. If it's too heady, my favorite one is called a spiritual kindergarten. And it takes a Christian walk through the 12 steps. Uh, very simple. It's written by a spiritual director and a pastoral counselor and husband and wife, and they go back and forth, very brief. It's a great small group for Sunday school classes or uh men or women small group session. For your own spirituality, uh, two of my favorite books. One is Spirituality of Imperfection. Uh, it's we keep several copies here at the Pine Grove bookstore. Uh, it's my favorite and top recommendation. It's written by a 12-step historian as well as a wisdom teacher who gives a story. Um, like it talks about the core components of spirituality. One of those is surrender. And then the author will give a story about surrender. Priest and a rabbi walk into a bar. Yeah. Sure. Funny stories. So um, but then one that I have found um over the years that has been a gentle walk with a couple of steps and then breathing, and put the book down and find someone to talk about. Uh, head to a coffee shop and is called Falling Upward. It looks at the spirituality for the two halves of our lives, which look really looks at what does spiritual maturity look like? Um, as the author says, it it's uh he's met some 18-year-olds who have it and some 81-year-olds who still do not. So um, but it's the type of book you can read two paragraphs and go, ooh, I need to chew on this. So put it down, take a walk around the neighborhood, uh, grab some sunshine or a coffee and a friend, then come back to the book later.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Those are some really good suggestions. We'll make sure that we have a listing of all of these books as well, as well as how to get in touch with you, David, and the information about your podcast, too. You really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Great. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Absolutely. Thank you so much. And I'm sure that we'll continue this conversation because spirituality is such a broad and important topic for people. So we'll plan on some future episodes regarding spirituality as well, baby.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Wonderful. And blessings to everyone that watches it.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Oh, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for all of your hard work and the work that you do every day, David. We appreciate it very much. And uh to let you know if you like this podcast, please subscribe to Beyond the Grove for our future episodes. We appreciate you listening and watching today. And remember, healing doesn't stop here, and neither does it.